The Truth About College: The Joys and Pitfalls with Dr. Zakiya Akerele

Episode Summary:
This episode is all about the pursuit of higher education. I talk to DR. Zakiya, a self-proclaimed former career student and author of the upcoming book, "Dump Your Degree." We talk about our experiences with higher education, the lessons we learned, and the pitfalls we faced. We also talk about our experiences with work-life after school.
 
About the Interviewee:
Dr. Zakiya Akerele is a third-generation educator with a passion for lifelong learning. She is the creator of the Degrees of Separation documentary film that addresses the higher rates of unemployment and underemployment experienced by Black college graduates and presents solutions such as entrepreneurship as a way to combat these issues. Dr. Akerele is a former HBCU professor and the author of Dump Your Degree: How to Repurpose Your Education, Control Your Career, and Gain Financial Freedom. She is committed to helping students and graduates create careers they enjoy on their own terms.

Pre-order her book Dump Your Degree at DumpYourDegree.com
Degrees of Separation Documentary: https://vimeo.com/385010598

Spotlight on Melanin:
This episode's Spotlight on Melanin is Rafiah Maxie. After tragically losing her son to suicide, she has worked to help others not have to feel the pain she had to go through. Through her organization Soul Survivors of Chicago, she works to raise awareness surrounding mental health, suicide prevention, and trauma prevention for youth of color. To learn more about the things she is doing, you can follow her on Instagram @SoulSurvivorsCHI or visit her website at SoulSurvivorsOfChicago.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Preview
• 2:08 How to Support
• 2:27 Interview with Dr. Zakiya Akerele
• 1:01:00 Spotlight of Melanin: Rafiah Maxie
• 1:01:52 Credits

Transcript

Richard Dodds  0:00  
Coming up later in the episode, 

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  0:02  
because we just been told just go get a degree is not all degrees are not equal even though you're paying the same amount. So if I go get a degree in like basket weaving, I'm paying what somebody is paying for degree in architecture or engineering. But when I graduate, that engineer is gonna make way more than me and I paid the same amount. So we need is on if we are going to go to school, get things that will give us that return of investment that we need to if not find other opportunities.

Richard Dodds  0:34  
This is still talking black show about giving perspective issues that black people face every day. I'm your host, Richard. When I graduated from high school, there was no doubt I was going to college even knew what I wanted to do. At least I thought I did. I jumped into college full steam ahead, not truly understanding what it would take to get to where I wanted to go, or where I even wanted to go. I started on a major that seemed like a no brainer for me. But by the time I got near graduation, I realized maybe this wasn't what I wanted. Very late on my college career, I switched majors and found something that gave me a spark. I remember being so optimistic near graduation, thinking I'll follow the formula so far. Next graduate, get a good job, get married, buy a house with a white picket fence. My American Dream was burst shortly before graduation, one of my professors told us good luck, this industry is shrinking, and there are many jobs available. As soon as I graduated, we were hit with a recession. And what was once a thriving market became completely barren. We were no longer in an era where a college degree practically guaranteed you a good job. This episode is all about the pursuit of higher education. After the break, I talk to doctors Akia, a self proclaimed former career student and author of an upcoming book, dump your degree. We're going to be talking about our experiences with higher education, the lessons we've learned, the pitfalls we face, we're also going to talk about our experiences with work life after school. If you like what we're doing here, I'll still talk in black, the best way to show your support is by liking, writing and sharing our content by emerge from our store is still talking black for slash shop, or donating using a link in the show description. Every little bit helps. Thank you for your continued support.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  2:27  
I'm Zakia I can relay former HBCU professor I taught at Florida a&m University, which is my alma mater, and also taught at will waters University in the humanities and history departments. I am currently a full time author, I've transitioned out of higher education, but higher education is still something that I'm very much so connected to.

Richard Dodds  2:51  
So how did you get to the place where you are now? What was that journey? Like? Just because I know you did a lot you tell? You said you are a self proclaimed serial dude. How did you get to where you are now.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  3:04  
So I am a third generation educator. My grandmother actually is an alum of both Ed waters and Florida a&m. But just by chance or what have you, I ended up going to one as my alma mater and teaching at one and then also teaching at the other. My mother was an early childhood education for most of my childhood. And it wasn't as though education was something that I intended on going into are actually wanting to become a lawyer. But as I was an undergrad, I took the path of like pre law, and I fell in love with like the humanities, philosophy, religion, studying cultures, sociology. And I said, Okay, well, I can still use that in law and ended up taking the LSAT not doing too well. And it's like, what am I going to do? And so I ended up saying, Okay, you still want to pursue higher education, maybe you just want to take a different route. So I ended up going to get a master's degree at Fordham University studying religion but as it relates to social justice issues, so I did a lot of work with interfaith, intercultural conflict resolution and things like that ended up going later to Columbia University to get a degree in international educational development, and then doing my PhD in religion and religious education, but focusing on community how religious institutions play a role in community development. Not you know, a lot of people think when they hear religion is oh, you go to theology school, but that's not my route. That's, you know, it's more so looking at it from the study of religion, but also in the sociological, social justice and conflict resolution perspective. So that's how I ended up considering myself a serial student wanted to learn more and more and more and ended up getting four degrees.

Richard Dodds  4:59  
Yeah, That sounds like quite quite the journey. It was quite the journey. A lot of interesting things in there, too. Seems like you had a lot of interesting stops, and you found your path. So what what challenges do you think black students face with traditional higher education paths.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  5:19  
So, within that journey, you know, I work I work primarily for like nonprofit organizations, NGOs. But my idea of what higher education would lead me to which I was told, Oh, just get a degree, you'll be more successful, you know, jobs will just be waiting at your doorstep, no matter what you major in, right. And I found myself stuck, because I graduated with my doctorate in 2010. And that was kind of like right at the tail end or beginning, middle, whatever of that recession at that time. So where I was able to just find work easily as a student, or during my grad career, I was not able to find work after I finished my doctorate. And I didn't know what to do, right. I searched and searched, I didn't know what to do. And so I ended up having to move back at the time I was living in New York City was where I was finishing my degree and moving back to Florida where I was raised, couldn't find work. And I was like, Okay, what's going on? This is personal, right? Like, what am I doing wrong? Why can't I find work? And I realized, I think it was about about a two year stint where I was either unemployed or underemployed, severely underemployed, and I realized that I was not the only one. So like, friends, peers, who had graduated with me, Ivy League, top tier schools, or whatever schools were unemployed, underemployed, like struggling, I realized that a lot of things that I was told personally, also other African American students, graduates were told by their family, just go get a degree, just give up. All right. And that's just not the case. And so after I did end up teaching in higher education, even though I ended up with my dream job, about three years after graduation, I was experiencing, my students who are graduating top of the class are unemployed, and I started, something is going on here. You know, these are bright, brilliant students, still unemployed and underemployed, which led me to some research. And I was noticing that African Americans have, according to statistics have a 50% higher unemployment rate than their white counterparts than the national average. So we can get the same degrees or our graduate, whatever, at whatever level, typically, we have a 50% higher unemployment rate. So that just led me down a rabbit hole of like, trying to figure out what this is all about,

Richard Dodds  7:51  
you know, I can really relate to that. Because I graduated from my undergrad, like, during the first recession that we've had, I don't know, I feel like we've had like, three in my lifetime at this point. But and before, went out, like us not go to school, you know, get a good, you will get a good job, and then you'll be set. So it's like I went to college, and I was like, Oh, when I graduate, everything's gonna be good. And I remember being in my marketing class, I was a senior marketing class, and my professor says, this industry is shrinking. So good look, like NASA, like I'm just we just spent like, you know, 50 grand, trying to get education. It's like your professors like, oh, yeah, good luck, like, you know, like, the industry is shrinking, and then you get out. And then you're in the middle of recession. It's like now like, what, what do I do? Exactly. And yeah, so that narrative doesn't always pan out. Because I remember, I really didn't get employed. Even though I had like a whole bachelor's. I went back to school for like a trade school. And then I was like, I combined the two things that I was doing. And then I was able to get a job. And even even with all of that, I was like, laid off for like six or seven months after that first contract. And I was like, like, people at Walmart, like, well, you are too qualified to work here. And then other places like, well, we just don't have opening. So it's like the places that I could have worked easily. We're like, well, you're just gonna work here to find something else. And we don't want to go through that

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  9:21  
exact Oh, trust me. I know you put you to the choir. Can you imagine what a PhD? Yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, I felt that Oh, you're overqualified. So actually, I would take degrees off my resume, just so that I can get employed. Um, one thing though, it was interesting with the like I said, serial student, whatever having all those degrees. It was at one point where I got one of my best jobs after taking off two of my degrees off of marriage. And it was so interesting, because I thought it was a hoax back back then. It was like, yeah, like me at 220 by 2010. Early 2010. And I found the job on Craigslist. And I was like, there was a big research organization what what are they advertising on here, but I was trying everything here that I'm overqualified to take two of my degrees off it that even though the research position was not in my field, remember, I'm telling you, I got degrees in like religion and sociology, whatever, but the research was in something completely different. And they needed somebody to manage that aspect. I was like, I know, I can do it. I can research I mean, you know, so I ended up applying, interviewed with the, the NGO, and my interviewer had a PhD, right. And so I just, I don't know what I finally was able to tell her, you know what, look, I'm gonna just keep it real with you. I have a little bit more that I didn't put. And it was having that communication with her, but also going above and beyond before they hired me and tapping into my community resources, and saying, Hey, look, if y'all give me a chance, I can do all of this for you all. And they ended up hiring me even though it was not in my field, and all that other stuff that quote, unquote, overqualified and what have you. But I was so tired of hearing you're overqualified, that I was starting to just take off, you know, as much education as I could just to get hired.

Richard Dodds  11:23  
It reminds me I just recently watched robots. Okay, that had been a while since I watched it. I don't know how much you remember. But the father had been some kind of playing engineer, like an aviation engineer. And he lost his job because the company he had worked for I went under, and he was looking for jobs, and looking for jobs. And he finally got to this place. And it was like a sanitation engineer. He's like, Oh, like, like, I felt like I have the qualifications. He's like, No son, like, this job is for a janitor. Why? And then he was getting ready to walk out. But he came back. He's like, Well, how much does it pay? Because I need a job. And I feel like that that was such a true a true story. Because so many people like, I mean, from being in that position myself, I just want to work, you want to start moving forward. And I was like, I don't care how much qualifications I kind of need to put, start paying back these loans.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  12:16  
Exactly. I have an experience. After graduating, I went, at the time in the city, I was raised in Jacksonville, Florida. And at the time, there was like the mayoral race was going on first black mayor, you know, potentially, he ended up becoming the first black mayor Jackson deal, but I was working on his campaign. And I just had to take something, you know, it wasn't paying much at all right. And I did not want to, like, let people kind of know, you know, just they're blending me in. What really struck me was, there was an older woman there, who was also working. And her and I, you know, made a connection and come to find out she was a PhD holder, former professor and had to take this job paying probably, I want to say like eight bucks, and I was very low. And I'm like, What is going on, where you have two people here that have PhDs can't find work and have to do whatever it is. And I used to be very ashamed to kind of like, say this for a while, like, I had to work for the lowest pay, I could find just to work. And that experience was very humbling. But it was very eye opening as well. Because I know that a lot of times people fall into I just can't find that. And I don't know if he's playing on his heart out here. You know, the negative self talk and what have you. But I was like, No, I got to figure this thing out. Here, right. So that's what ended up happening. And I ended up getting my dream job and creating a career that I loved, right? By figuring out it's not the degrees that qualify me. But it's the sum of other things, right, like knowledge, but also skills, like you mentioned, going to get a trade network as well and how to navigate the system completely together, not just looking at my degrees.

Richard Dodds  14:10  
I think that's networking. I think that's one of the places where black people have a distinct disadvantage. I think it's getting better now. But you can't really call up like, Hey,

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  14:23  
I agree. And that's, it's so interesting. I created a documentary called degrees of separation. It started off it's like an awareness campaign. To address why is it that black college grads, not HBCU black people who graduate college from PWI HBCUs have a higher unemployment and underemployment rate, the underemployment rate is even higher, right. working jobs that don't require a degree or they don't have them at all. And when I did the documentary, I did it in Tallahassee, Florida, which is a college town So I was teaching there I had people from different that went to different schools, but that will present but you know, and one of the things that one of the participants said was she did not know how to navigate that system of networking and having those connections that her because she went to a PWI and her white counterparts had access to. And I thought that was very significant. Um, because as I'm very committed to helping students, and graduates kind of come out of that, like, how do you get a leg up? What are the tricks and things that others are doing that we may not know how to do? So in keeping those connections with students and graduates, I'll ask them, Hey, do you know how to do this? Or you can do this? And they have no clue? Yeah. Whereas in their white counterparts, there you go, you know, they know what's going on? Not saying all of them do. But there are certain simple tactics and rules, you know, things that black students have no idea I don't want to generalize, but it's showing up in the numbers that, yeah, a lot of us just don't have those same advantages, and access to those resources, even know how to tap into them. They may be there. We don't know how to tap into. So I totally agree with what you're saying.

Richard Dodds  16:13  
Yeah, I just think that preparedness to for college, I didn't really I went to college, because I was told to go to college. But I didn't go like some some of the students that I was in college for with that weren't black, they came in, they knew exactly what they wanted to do. Like I was I had a roommate, and he was like, Hey, I'm just, you know, I came to get this specific degree. Because as soon as I get out, I'm gonna help run this business that's already set up for me, I just need to get this degree. And I'm like, I just do this for two years. And then I'll have a business and I'll be doing this business. And I own a part of it. And like me, I was like, at the time, I thought I wanted to be engineering, I was our engineers a good job, you know what I mean? So it's like, oh, just go be an engineer. But I was not prepared. And I did not know a lot of the things that I felt like I shouldn't know going into, like my advisors. My parents really didn't know cuz they didn't, they didn't, they did some college, but they didn't finish college. So it's like I was missing that goal that a lot of the other students had. And I was like, man, like, I really wish I had it. Like looking back at it. Now. It's like, I really wish I had had a little bit more information on mitre would have did things a little bit different, might want to learn more about the career that I was trying to do before committing to doing classes that weren't transferable when I switched my major. So it's a lot, it's a lot of learning. But the thing I feel about school, I feel like when you get your when you get your degree, a lot of times I think of it as a certificate of being able to complete and accomplish something. Right. And I feel like sometimes that's why it's important that sometimes it's why you work out of your field. But from doing so much engineering, the thing that I also surmise is that a lot of times by schoolers and teaching you knowledge, and it's not the end all be all school teaches you how to learn and how to think and in the profession. So if you think that you kind of graduate knowing everything that you need to know, then I feel like once you get into the real world, it's like System Shock. So I thought I would have everything,

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  18:11  
right, not the same thing, even with graduate degree. Didn't you know, not saying I didn't know Jack, but the world was very real. And it did wake me up in a lot of ways. And I think that is interesting. You mentioned you are somewhat of like a first generation college students. They went they didn't finish. Yeah, I've experienced those who were first generation college students. I myself is interesting, because we have some overlap. I'm not a first year in Chicago. My grandmother has a master's degree from the same university I graduated from, even as far back even on my father's side, I have, you know, my people who graduated college in the 1800s that I can trace I'm like, okay, so I have a lineage to higher education when it was uncommon, black or white to have degrees. So why did I experience what I experienced? As far as not having that preparation for the real world, the job market, I felt like okay, those that came before me should have been able to teach me or help me navigate the system. But it was different, right. So my mother, though she went to college, she didn't have student loans. My grandfather and grandmother, both were educated. Although my grandfather didn't finish college, he started college and he created a very successful career and was able to pay cash for my mom's education. On top of that, what she paid is not what I paid, right? So completely different. So she didn't know how to tell me about student loans. Right? She didn't know how to say, hey, you might not want to take this budget. Actually, when I was in grad school, even though I had some scholarship I remember not being able to pay for everything. So I needed to take out student loans. And I call my mom say, Hey, Mom, you know, I need this done third, what should I do? She's like, Oh, take out some more student loans. You, you'll get a job and you finished your paying back. It was just like, Oh, there's the money, go ahead and do it. I didn't get a job right away, right? The day, you know, whether you have a job or not, is still there, and they won't pay money. Oh, I was not even though I had people who came before me, it the, it was different for me. You know, so even though people may be in that, because even the same first generation college students, I can't even imagine having to navigate that system on your own completely not knowing anything, right. So it's very real. And I feel as though even though you may be an educator in higher education, helping students prepare for the real world, no matter what if you are a biology professor, a philosophy professor, having a system in place where Hey, while you're teaching your subject area, there is still something in place for these students to know how do I with this degree, transfer that into the real world where it benefits

Richard Dodds  21:09  
me? Yeah, and even me, being a black student, like I was really fortunate to be able to have my parents pay for like my primary education, they pay for all of it, I don't have to take on any student loans. One thing that I wish in hindsight is that we had apply for more scholarships, and grants just because I was smart, and I have decent grades. So I feel like it's some money that we could have got that we could have put into other things. But just having that leg up, which a lot of our people don't have all the time, it's being able to go to school, basically. I mean, it wasn't free, but it was free to me, I didn't graduate what a crippling amount of debt. Like I only got my student loan debt when I went back to school. Same here. So it's like, but it's like just being able to have that platform. It's like, I have my degree. And I'm not under the weight of debt that some of my friends are my friends that look like me, I'm not under the same weight that they are. I was just, it was a blessing in itself. Just like, wow, like I'm graduating. And like, a lot of us don't have that. So by having a better understanding of scholarships for like people, for minorities. And I think that's just a really important thing. And it's something I plan to teach my kids for sure.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  22:17  
Yeah, definitely. I, as I was mentioning, because of the passion that I have, I started to do workshops with particularly with HBCUs black students about the job market. But one aspect that I regrettably hadn't kind of tapped into was the debt aspect before. I recently finished a book and I do have a whole chapter on you know, I call it don't make a deal with the debt. VO cripple you, if you, you know, people think I just take out every money, you give it a 1718 year old access to all his money, and you're like, I just got to sign up. Cool, you know, and, you know, they're getting the net checks afterwards. And they not saying that they just frivolously spending. But if you don't have that financial aspect, that knowledge and then you have access to a loan, and not you don't know how to navigate that money aspect of higher education, it can be very challenging. So yeah,

Richard Dodds  23:23  
I mean, that's kind of it's kind of crazy. That almost should be like a requirement. A summary requirement before you start college is a financial 101 school because you 18 years old, you don't know anything about money, you know anything about loans, I have somebody on the show, and she was saying that when she was in college, she wanted a free T shirt. So she signed up for a credit card not knowing that that she was gonna pay for that, for that day, that T shirt over and over and over again because she didn't know anything about you. 18 years old, you don't know anything about credit. It's grown people, like home grown like 3040 years old. Oh, no. I just feel like especially when just to be out when I when I bought my first home. I had to take the class or mortgage. Like why are we not requiring people to take long, like student loan classes, just because especially like for some majors, like oh, you want to be an art major you're gonna make $13,000 a year you taking a $70,000 loan that might not be the move for you player. You know what I'm saying? Like it might that might not be it.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  24:26  
Yeah, and you know, like, let me just keep it real with you again. I just finished a book on this and in the book is called dump your degree and people are pretty dumb people don't get Listen, okay? I'm just be real with you. It's not to say don't get a degree. But it is to say you may not need that degree right there. There are other avenues to having a successful career trade school. Like you mentioned, I'm a big fan of it in lieu of getting a degree or in conjunction with your degree right. But to answer your question, And the reason I bring it up is because the schools are not there, I hate to say it like this, they want you there, they care about you enough to keep you there, right? Because you keep the lights on, you know, you keep the bills paid at that university, it's a business. So just like, you know, when you want to go and make a purchase with credit, the person that's selling to you is not like, Hey, you sure you can afford this nothing like run NET credit, or whatever. So the school benefits themselves by offering you the student loan, because that's how they pay. So regardless of you finish, you finish 10 years down the line, you don't finish at all, they still have gotten paid. Right? So when you say why don't they require, you know, it would be nice, but and I hate to say it like, okay, schools don't care about you. But they want their money they need. So the more people have access to education, because everybody can not afford college, but they can get a student loan. They're like, hey, sign up, let's go. Nobody sat me down in all of my four degrees. Well, like, like you said, the first one I didn't have, you know, I don't have any debt. But like, that's cool. sat me down was like, Okay, this, you know, explained this, I was like, Okay, I'll just sign up, and I can pay for grad school and have my expenses paid. So it is a benefit to the school, you end up losing, right? You're in debt, you have to pay interest, whether you have a job or not, but the school is going, it's a win win for them, because they're gonna get their money. That's just the reality of it.

Richard Dodds  26:34  
And it's, it's crazy that student loan debt is such a big issue with America right now that you think that we will have better solutions and better conversations, but I don't know Money, Money rules, everything right? Well, so we talked a little bit about trade schools, we've talked to a little bit about universities, and European students are looking high school students that are getting ready to graduate, what options do they have to start an adult life? Because I think the narrative with the millennial generation have you got to go to school, it's kind of fading out, you know what I mean? Like, I felt like my parents, and like before me, were like, Hey, you got to go to school to get good education do anything? What options? Do students now like that are graduating school in the next couple of years? What options do they have to start their adult life?

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  27:22  
I think so. We have currently Gen Z that's in college, right. And I appreciate that, that narrative is shifting around higher education, this is coming from Bible four degrees, but that this generation now saying, Hey, I might not need all of this. I don't want to say education, because you can learn anywhere, right? But I might not need the degrees to qualify me. You see it in tech, right? Where these tech companies are saying we don't we don't need you to have a degree to come on over. Because they know right people can do jobs, people can be creative, be innovative, without a degree to qualify them, you can learn a whole lot of stuff, we live in an information age where you can learn anything, YouTube, you a lot of like you can help me like they call it YouTube, your university has helped me like shift my life in so many ways. But you also have course course programs online where you can take and get certificates. I think that Gen Z should be more open to going the trade route one there is a lot of there's a lot of opportunity in the trades, right and that should be at the top of the list right because so many people are getting degrees or have gotten degrees, that now you have high pain, trade jobs that don't require a degree or or just require a trade certificate that people are not working but there are available so you can have a degree and be making a little bit of money or you can go get a trade and and be very well off. But also good looking into what you know more of us to get into things like tech and the sciences and more. So if they are going to go to school to get in degrees that are considered heart degrees, instead of the soft degrees. We see an overabundance with us with African Americans who get soft degrees and I was one who got you know what?

Richard Dodds  29:23  
Soft degrees versus

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  29:25  
degrees that are not going to give you the best return of investment so we would be more so like the arts like you said fashion design. Another one that was really big and I hope I'm not stepping on any toes but like criminal justice, you know, things like that, which are more they're not gonna give you a good return on you. Like you said you might pay say you pay 30,000 undergrad 40 50,000 undergrad to get the degree and you kind of come out make a 20,000 a year and not being able to pay off the student loans and the interest and all that it's not going to give you what a hard degree like student In something tech related or those are more stable even, I've seen it where business degrees are being considered soft, which I didn't know, right? I don't know, maybe it's an overabundance of people go on and get a business degree, right. But I think that Gen Z that are currently students are on their way to college should focus on the trades, the skills, or certificate programs, which are paying a significant amount that we are traditionally not looking at, because we've just been told, just go get a degree is not all degrees are not? Well, even though you're paying the same amount. So if I go get a degree, in like basket weaving, I'm paying what somebody is paying for a degree in architecture or engineering. But when I graduate, that engineer is gonna make way more than me, and I paid the same amount. So we need is on, if we are going to go to school, get things that will give us that return of investment that we need to if not find other opportunities. And with this generation, which I do love. I see a lot of people who are focused on entrepreneurship, that's my thing, right? So even if you get the degree you don't focusing on ways that you can improve, you know, the route to success through entrepreneurship, big thing, right? So start thinking about that, even before you start school while you're in school. You look at a lot of these big companies, these tech companies like the Facebook's, and you know, even I think it was Kinkos. And a lot of these founders don't have degrees, they might have started, but they didn't finish. So it's not the degree right. So I just That's my overall thing for those who are on their way. Yeah,

Richard Dodds  31:43  
I think I think my degree definitely helped me even in my time in engineering, I feel like contributed to the things that I do now. But I just some stuff that I wish I had a really understood before going into school, like even when I went to like my coding classes, like one of my coding teachers, she had learned how to code just from from the internet. She didn't have a certificate, she didn't go to any classes. Yeah, learn how to code completely on the internet. And I was like, and she was my age at that. And I was like, wow, like, you didn't want to end up paying for this class. So. But the thing I think about is like when we're talking about credit, and things like that, how 18 year old students coming out of school really don't understand. Maybe like credit, they don't understand that they don't understand finances, majority of my say there are exceptions to the rules, of course. What do you think about students trying to figure out what they want to do before maybe attending a four year, a four year university because like, for me, like I said, like, as soon as I got out of college, or as soon as I got out of high school was like, oh, I want to be an engineer. That's what I want to do. And it wasn't until I got into the depths of engineering, I was really like, not that far away from an engineering degree that I was like, Ooh, this I really want. I'm feeling like so many people have told me that. So it's like, I hesitate telling like students now, like, take a year off, figure out who you are. Because it's so hard to get back into school. Once you're out of that. That cadence of school. Like I couldn't imagine going back to school now. It'd be like a nightmare. But it's like, how do we how to how do we prepare our kids to figure out what they want to be? So I mean, soft, hard, like degree, like whether they like, alright, if you're going for a soft degree, you probably don't need a degree, let's do this and stay. But how do we help them to figure out what it is they really want to be before they spend money that they're not going to be able to get back going to be something that they changed their degree, they changed their majors like five times.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  33:42  
I was one that changed. I think I changed mine two or three, but I still finished before time. That's unusual, right? People do that and go accumulate excess credit hours that won't transfer that will keep you there longer. And I don't think that you can tell a 1718 1921 year old figure out what you want to do in life. Because it's a journey, right? And we're going to shift our purpose based on the knowledge we have at the time, you could very well say I want to be a doctor like me, I wanted to be a lawyer, I realized now in my 30s that I'm glad I didn't become a lawyer like if I would have followed 1718 year old self who was on a pre law scholarship in undergrad, and like was so hardcore on becoming a lawyer. I probably would be miserable now, in my career, like I have one of my close friends. He's an attorney. He's like, I'm ready to do this. I'm doing very well in his career as a lawyer but he's got this stressful the type of law he practices. So when it comes to helping young people figure out what I do think that there are exceptions where people just know and that's what they are. They've always been like an artist like I've always had a passion for art and then there are evolves as they grow. Right, but telling somebody, Hey, go to school for this, and this is what you will be, I think it's very challenging. So in some ways, although this may be counterintuitive or contradictory to what I say, some ways, you kind of like those interdisciplinary or liberal arts type degrees, because it helps you to kind of like, taste a little bit of everything right? Check out this, check out that, okay, and then develop skills and say, Okay, I can transfer this degree into being a marketer or whatever, because I know a lot of people who encountered who have a degree in psychology who went into market because they understand the human mind, right? So figuring out and that's not necessarily what you want to do. But how can you get a degree that would transfer or you would have the skills that would help you develop a career in multiple things. And it may not, though come with getting a job in a particular field, it may come from you creating that opportunity, which I'm big on, for example, I have a mentee who just recently graduated. I forget her major was something science related, I want to say like something in biology, she took a few of my courses, and fell in love with the study of more religions, African spirituality, like all these classes I was taking which most people took my classes for Humanities credit, right. This is manatees credit. So I would get students from business biology, architecture everywhere. And she was so fascinated, and I have this happen a lot, because I'm the best professor in the world that want to change their major. And I'm like, hold on, listen, don't do it. Like, I know that. You see me, I'm a professor, this is what I studied, this is what I'm passionate about. But the odds of you getting a job in this field are so slim, I'm talking about at the level right? Most people who graduate get a degree in philosophy, religion, the average they're going to be underemployed, right? They're not going to go directly. So I tried to discourage her from changing her major, she was adamant she changed her major to religion. And I said, Listen, okay, if, because you've done this, figure out a way you can use the skills from this to now transfer out so you don't become a professor of religion, down the line, you're not unemployed or underemployed. So could you create something, a job for yourself that may not even be related to your major, that could be beneficial? So I say that to answer your question of how do we get students to No, You think most people are just not going to know that? You know, but can they develop skills that will be transferable? Or can they learn outside of the degree or in conjunction with the degree to create a business for themselves, or some type of career that they control short? And that's what I think we should focus on.

Richard Dodds  38:03  
It seems like you will have courses set up that will prepare you for any kind of that seems like it would be more thoughtful. Like when I started out engineering, I was taking engineering classes here, one, instead of being able to, like really just be like, Oh, let me see it. This is what I want. Like I'm taking cow one and technology, and all these things. And so whenever I talk to anybody who's saying, like, Oh, I'm about to go to school, and I want to be this and I'm like, Well, if you if you're sure that go for it, but if you're not so sure, take everything like because we're traditional universities, the thing about it is, is that it's courses regardless of if you're going to be an engineer, if you're going to be you know, artists, it's a core amount of classes that you got to take regardless. So you might as well if you're not so sure, you might as well just go ahead and get that out the way and start studying other stuff to see if there's other things that you're interested in. The things that I really liked about trade school was that it took all the fluff, going to trade school, you know exactly what you want to try your school for. So you're not paying that extra money for taking like oh humanities class, and this and this and that you just playing Oh, you want to learn how to weld, everything you do is gonna be about well, you want to know heating and cooling. Everything we're doing is heating and cooling. And that's the thing that I love about trades. But like in your case, like you make a case for like, hey, maybe it needs humanity classes, you find that thing that you truly want to do. And then you could waste all that money that you spent already doing another degree and then you could just start over it's fine.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  39:40  
But you can I think there is not a one size fit all. But I do agree with what you're saying is like, Hey, I make I make this case about a plumber. Actually, when I was in high school, that's my my senior year for a couple friends of mine. We all wanted to go to school, but one of our buddies wanted to be a plumber straight out the gate, he went on, I was like, I'm not going to call, I'm gonna be a plumber, my uncle a plumber, he made good money. I'm doing that. So we were in a elective class and, and the teacher was like, hey, you know, going around the room, like, what does everybody gonna do after they graduate? And you know, I'm be a teacher and be go to school, be a nurse with whatever get to buddy that wants to be a plumber. He says, I want to be a plumber, the teacher was like, stop playing. This is not a joke, take this series, what do you want to do? And he was like, I want to be a plumber. And the teacher did not believe that someone wanted to like, look, everybody want to go to college, right? It wasn't until me and a friend of mine was like, hold on. He wants to be a plumber. He's told us this is our buddy. And we encouraged him to be a plumber. Right? And so yeah, I do agree, hey, you know, this is what you've seen the success you you have a passion for whatever it is, out the gate, you might be 1718 years old, graduating, and you know, that's what you want to do. And even if you don't, you know, if you try it out, you can go another right. Another person might say, Hey, you just test a few things to kind of explore the problem, though, again, I know it's like I said, it may be in contradiction. I don't believe people should do that wasting their time and money going to plan around like okay, like you say maybe the first year maybe an explored exploration kind of program, or what have you were you gonna need the electives. And the, you know, the elective credit, you know, humanities or whatever, test a few things before going hardcore into that field. So it could be it could be a little bit of both,

Richard Dodds  41:42  
I You said it passes, like it's not a one size fits all solution, and so many different ways that you could go, like, I feel like I didn't waste my money and engineering, well, my my parents money anyway, I didn't, I didn't waste my time at least doing engineering, just because I was able to take that into the other, I didn't waste it on marketing, because I was able to take that with the tray, the tray, solidified everything, and all of them work and all together. And but it is it is definitely things that you have to go through in order to find where you where you belong. And think about it, too, is that now it's getting easier than ever to be able to change your career. So you're starting something gaining somewhere, like, you know, like, if I if I could have just kept if I kept coding and Google was actually Google wasn't really like a thing thing like that, when I was getting ready to go to school, like it was kinda like it was just starting. But like if Google had been like a Thing, Thing, and I could have worked for Google or something like that for a little while, and like, oh, yeah, expand your education. Right? Now they're paying for my school, and I don't have the student loan debt. So it's something that you don't have to pay for. And you get higher education, because I tell people all the time, like, work is really another form of education, you just get paid to do it. And then sometimes you can get supplementary to go learn something else. Because your job should be making you more valuable when you leave. Like if you really got a good career, your career should be making you valuable. So if you leave, you start out at $40,000, when when you go to the next job, you so much more of how you can earn $60,000. And then you keep jumping up. So I like school school, you only get a lot of times you only get what you put into it to. Because if you think you don't what school unless any of the fields that I can think of professional fields, you can just like colleges, you constantly learning. And I don't even think a lot of psychologists when they get when they get going. If you really want to practice psychology, you at least at least need to go back and get your Masters. Yeah. At the bare minimum. So

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  43:45  
at the bare minimum. Well, Dr.

Richard Dodds  43:48  
So thinking about that, like, you know, you are the expert. So do you think that was too long is being the way it is and everything like that? Do you think traditional forms of higher education is still like you still think as a value for it? Do you think it needs to shift or what?

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  44:05  
Yeah, I think that, um, it's valuable for a particular route, I don't think is that blanket like one of the experts in the, in my documentary degrees of separation was saying he's a dean at the University of New York. And he was saying that, which is something that I didn't know at the time that traditionally most people went didn't work for other people. Right. That's kind of like a new thing, right? Since

Richard Dodds  44:37  
industrial revolution, right? That's when people weren't.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  44:41  
Exactly So before that people actually, look, you got your own business. I sell this I create that, um, you know, and it wasn't until people started to push this narrative of you need to go to school where people was like, Okay, it's more security if I go to school and I can work for somebody else, they take care everything, you know, they pay me, I don't have to worry about the overhead. But is that? So? Um, I think that, again, this is shifting with this generation where you see more saying I can work for myself, you know, this whole boss movement, you know, I'm a boss, chick, Boss Lady, you know, what have you. Um, you see a lot of people, even on social media that are young, that are saying, I can work for myself, I can do this, I can create something with very little, right, so you have access to where people can create their own websites, sell their own goods create their own, like, it's so beneficial now to actually, even if you do go to school, start with, like, again, I have old chapter saying start before you finish. So even if you do decide to go to school, you have something that can benefit you when you finish where you don't have to rely on getting a callback, because a lot of times, I think they say, on average, after graduation takes about six months for somebody to just get hired. And that's not to even say in their field. That's just right. And it could be longer. And of course, a lot of people are underemployed. So there is value in higher education, the network, right, but you can be connected to alumni, that may be that ticket, that door opening for you, that you would not have had access to before. I think that with certain degrees, if you do want to be a psychologist and get a PhD and be a therapist, right, you can't do that just by YouTube, right? That's a problem. Um, you can't be a lawyer by you know, looking on the internet. So there are degrees that if you know that you're passionate about, you know that you want to go into that field, you have to have the degree, so there is value there. But then just to say everybody must, because now we're creating an overabundance of people who have degree when there are not enough jobs to feel that right. So we see that that has been going on. I know, for the last over 20 years, statistically, I think they want to say late 90s, or early 2000s, where there was a maybe like a 40%, I have to look at the numbers, again, increase the people who got degrees, but there was not that much of an increase in the jobs available to them. So I do think that creating your own work is the key, whether that's through entrepreneurship, and business development that can be learned outside of

Richard Dodds  47:25  
the car. I think, for a lot of us, creating your own business came from that was like a necessity. It wasn't something that a lot of us, like, pursue, like, Oh, I just want to be a business owner a lot of times, like sometimes, you know, but a lot of times I know a lot of people like especially during the pandemic, they were like, I have to do something like I have to create something like I have to I can't get hired, I still got to feed my kids like what do I need to do in order to make a successful business? I think technology has helped a lot. I think the the shift, and some of the black entertainers has helped a lot you think about like Jay Z and Dr. Dre and Diddy and Rihanna and Beyonce, a lot of them are talking more about like, hey, like, I'm not gonna be an entertainer forever. I'm making these investments, using the thing that I have. And the thing that's really valuable right now is attention having people look at you, that's really, really valuable. So they're taking that fame that they have, they say you're looking at me Alright, well look, I'm going to create a skincare line, I'm going to create shoes and I'm going to create clothing and, and I'm not just going to fall back. Like we're like especially I'm thinking about Rihanna like I don't know if we'll ever get another Rihanna album at this point because she has she just had a billion dollars. She's not making more money off of like Fenty stuff that she's done. Then she has off the music, which is a beautiful thing. And I think a lot of people are seeing that now. And they're like, I can do that technology is easier. I go back. I've said this before, go back to Daymond. John talking about when he started making the FUBU stuff. He was stitching it and suddenly on the corner. He's like now he's like, oh, yeah, I do. Basically he says you get like a Wix, Squarespace, Shopify. And you can do it online, you gotta leave your house, right? You've got to be savvy. And it's so much easier to do stuff now.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  49:13  
Right? Right. Right with that. I love it. Even though again, I was a humanities professor, every by first day when we would do introductions, why wouldn't teach anything? Just do introductions, Hey, who are you? This is who I am. And I would ask them, What are your goals after you graduate? And are there any people here who are into entrepreneurship? If so, come to the whiteboard and write your business name. Social media handles, what have you. This might be introduction to world religions, but aside from that, like hey, what's up with the businesses that is aspiring to create that and therefore whoever wanted to connect outside, you know, because you like you said, it's a time where anybody can make anything and you don't even have nothing. It's not horrible. It is entrepreneurship is hard work. But it's easier. It's you have more access now than like you said, Daymond. John had back in the 90s, you know? So yeah, it's a beautiful time to be alive.

Richard Dodds  50:15  
So let's switch gears a little bit with with people who've already graduated, or maybe already in a different career path, or someone that's older is maybe looking to get into something else. What advice would you give them accelerate their career path, either take their career, a career to the next level, or to change gears, because you know, like, a lot of especially like a lot of older people, some jobs as technology increases, shops get eliminated, new jobs get created, not always at the same speed. But that's a topic for another. That's another conversation in itself. What advice would you give somebody seeking to either take their career to the next level, or, like, think about somebody maybe like starting out in sales, who's been doing sales for a little while, or someone who's been doing in a field, and they're older, and they want to do something different, but they don't have the skills that a younger person has has from a kid.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  51:06  
So I would suggest one, mentorship is one of the biggest things right, and the mentor does not need to be older than you. I love that my mentees have become my mentors. Whereas like, there are certain skills that I don't have, again, I, I'm an educator professionally, but I shifted my career and started to develop a business. I didn't know marketing. But I had a mentee, who is really good, and has done really well my mom even joked with me how your students made more money than you but they are awesome. I love it. And I go to them. So addressing the older group that may be looking to shift be open to mentorship and to networking in spaces and with people who may be different from you, but are connected to that field, that industry that you want to be a part of, don't necessarily feel as though age is like, you know, you being older, cannot get anything from the younger generation, networking, being savvy with the network. I love LinkedIn, I think it's my favorite social media platform, because I've been on all of them. I am big on not being on them. Literally years without being on social media. But I'll still kind of tap into LinkedIn, maybe not as a content creator, but as a consumer. And being open to again, connecting with people from all walks of life from various backgrounds, different countries, that may have the resources and connecting with them, may help you open doors, right? Also recognizing that you're with your age comes experience and wisdom that you can offer value to someone else, right. And in exchange for that value. Once they see you adding value, they would be more apt to now you know, you create that relationship where if they have something you need, you know, so networking in ways like that, not necessarily looking at networking in that old way of oh, you know, going to an event and shaking hands handing out cards, you know, that kind of old school stuff. But finding ways to tap in and create content, put yourself out there connect with people who may not be the traditional, or be a part of that traditional look of what you think you may need. As far as also shifting careers like you, we've been talking. The internet has everything. There's knowledge there, you can legit, go to YouTube and lead yourself down a rabbit hole where there are people who are course creators who are experts in their fields who you can tap into take courses, take courses at universities have certificate programs that are online and expand, you know your background of experience through that be open to working with others maybe volunteering your time to learn or like somewhat apprentice under someone right? So there are so many ways to tap into a new field by just human connection as far as young people pretty similar advice right? So like getting an older mentor, somebody who is an expert, who already has been there and that you want to connect to and offer to add value to them whether it's through internship externship apprenticeship, how can I be of service to you? And don't think that because you're young and just starting out, you have nothing to offer you have so much to offer. Right? So being open and recognizing that and then connecting with those networks and using social media using your, your network of people even if you don't, you may think that you don't have that network, you might, you know, so just tapping into people tapping into resources, and don't just solely focus on what your degree is in, but expand your mind outside Today?

Richard Dodds  55:00  
Oh, that's great, great, great advice. I think that people really just discount like apprenticeships now, just because like, I'm gonna be doing all this work for you for free. Like, I gotta get something like no. Like, the knowledge that you can gain from working with a master or semi master in a field is priceless. It really is, like, I've seen so many people do things with people, and they are learning from these, these people who do things at a really high level or decently high level. And there's so much that you pick up, like, you know, like, I went to school to pay for that, right? You're doing it with them, and you're learning that stuff for free. But you you worried about game pay, it's not always a bargain and pay like, especially if you can, I remember like one of my first job opportunities that I the one that I really wanted, even though the one that I didn't end up getting. Now when I got another one, I was between a couple of different positions. One of them was like, it was just like a, basically an internship. And they were like, Hey, we can give you a stipend, we were not gonna pay you, but we need you to commit for a year, the stuff that they were doing was so exceptional. And it got me so excited that even though there's others I was gonna pay me like, really good. I really didn't want to do this internship, I was like, Alright, I'm gonna do an internship, I'm gonna 40 hours a week, I'm working 20 hours at the mall, just to make sure I have a little bit of money. And I didn't end up getting out. But the craziest thing is, is that I probably would have taken the job that was free just because I knew the knowledge that I would have gotten from that job would have made me so much more valuable after a year, I'll just call it a year of boot camp. After a year of boot camp, it would have made me so much more valuable than what I ended up getting, like I got something good, like I got paid. And, you know, I got to learn some stuff. But it wasn't necessarily stuff that I want to learn. I sometimes you get stuck in a position where you have one idea for your career, and then the company that you're at might have a whole nother idea for your career, and you kind of get stuck. So being able to navigate that a lot better. Aside from school stuff, that will probably be the one thing that I will say is that whenever you go to a job and you're starting your career, set career goals for yourself, and be intentional about your career happen to your career, don't let your career happen to you don't just just float along. Because, like, that's another thing. That's another difference between like some of our other counterparts versus a lot of the blank people that I've encountered is that a lot of our counterparts, they will get into a job or a career. And they will be like, I'm gonna be here for two years, I need to learn this, this and that, then I'm going to this job and I need to learn this, this and that, then I'll go here, and I need to learn this, this and that. So they have a direction where they're going, they're trying to get to CEO, CFO, Production Manager, maybe they're trying to open their own business. And they know that they need to gain these interpersonal skills from at this level, or they need to learn the knowledge from here. They need to learn how to be a manager, why they're getting paid for it instead of paying their own money. It's things that they know that I wish that I had no earlier in my career, because it's so many different things that I would have done differently. Right. And I think that that's something like with school and career, I feel like they go hand in hand because like, like I said, career, it's just school that you get paid for instead of paying for, like school never ends really, even if you're working for yourself that is like for real school, right? But so what everything said and done, if you could go back before you just talk to your younger self, before you started your pursuit in higher education, what advice would you give yourself?

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  58:36  
Oh, goodness, don't get all degrees. You know, it's hard to say that though, because everything I've been through is what made me and I appreciate the journey and the knowledge that I've acquired with that journey. But I definitely even if I did acquire all of the degrees that I have, because I'm very passionate about the human narrative and understanding cultures. And that's why I study what I study. But at the same time, I would definitely, definitely have better knowledge about how student loans work, finances, budgeting, those type of things I wish that I knew going in, I would have done things completely different. And also, I would have focused more so on entrepreneurship, I consider myself to be a very creative person. But I think I downplayed a lot of how my creativity and the ideas that I had, could have developed and blossomed into some very lucrative things. So I'm very big on making sure that you you realize that there are so many avenues that can be approached to create a good life and it's not necessarily what society or even your parents tell you oh, this is a very good job, you get benefits and you've retired, like being open to the world of possibility. So those those things being financially free eyes and knowledgeable, and also being open to different career paths,

Richard Dodds  1:00:05  
as always kind of hard for me to think about what I would have done differently if I could go back and do it different. Like if I could go back and tell my younger self something, I think you hit the same points. It's like, it'd be great to tell myself something. But the things that I went through lent me here, right, and when you have to wear here is it's kind of hard to want to change anything that made you end up getting here. Right. Dr. Z, I had such a great time talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Zakiya Akerele  1:00:37  
I really appreciate you allowing me to share my story.

Richard Dodds  1:00:41  
Doctors a key his book will be releasing June 21. And we'll cover a lot of the topics that we talked about on today's show and more. You can pre order the book at dump your degree.com which I've linked in the show notes along with a link to her documentary degrees of separation. So that's all I have for you for today's show. But before you go, I would like to put a little spotlight on melanin spotlight on melanin is the part of the show where I like to spotlight a creator influencer artists, business owner or activist of color. Today I would like to spotlight raffia Maxine, after tragically losing her son to suicide. She has worked to help others not have to feel the pain that she had to go through through her organization. So survivors of Chicago, she works to raise awareness surrounding mental health, suicide prevention, and trauma prevention of youth of color. To learn more about the things that she's doing, you can follow her on Instagram, so survivors thr or visit her website at sole survivors of chicago.com. If you or someone you know would like the chance to be featured on spotlight on melanin, send us an email at spotlight as still talking black calm. Please include links to their social media and why you feel they should be spotlighted. So again, thank you everyone for listening. Still talking black as a crown kosher media LLC production is produced by me. Richard Dodds and our theme music was created by the DJ blue, please be sure to rate and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting app. You can follow the show on Instagram, I'm still talking to black. You can follow my personal account at dads ism and as do DDS is m but until next time, keep talking

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